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I've felt increasingly politically homeless over the past few years. Neither major party appears to care about the two largest problems facing the U.S.: the national debt, and the inability of Congress to assert the powers delegated to it by the Constitution. Though the problems become obvious to one party while the other is in power, they end up doing nothing about it when the pendulum swings back.

Getting rid of the filibuster, adding more seats to the House, and states adopting some form of ranked choice voting, would be a good start. Ultimately we will need a broader cultural shift back to the values of the Founders: rule of law, federalism, and limited government. Unfortunately with the rise of populism on the right and left, it doesn't seem like we are headed in the right direction.


> Neither major party appears to care about the two largest problems facing the U.S.

Forget about national politics and parties. Focus on the races in front of you. Irrespective of consequence. Local, primary, pre-primary informal caucusing, et cetera. It’s tedious. But there is a shocking amount of power that even small amounts of civic engagement away from general elections brings.

Unless the only issues you care about are hot button, there is a good chance you can individually sway policy outcomes in a meaningful way. (I have.)


Can someone explain to me why the debt thing is an issue?

The US can inflate it away over time, with the main cost being the US standard of living staying flat or going down (which is annoying but very much tolerable given current American living standards). Moreover, paying for the debt by inflating it is a lot more politically palatable, as people don't usually think in inflation adjusted terms. Plus, you can take measures to fudge the official inflation numbers anyway.

Now compare this with climate issues, where no amount of financial engineering or political cost is going to fix environmental damage.


I'm not an expert but I can tell you why I think it's an issue.

The national debt has to be continually refinanced as parts of it become due. That works when investors are willing to give you money. But if investors think you are no longer a good investment they will continually ask for higher interest rates and then eventually they will stop giving you their money altogether. And if that happens then we're going to be in be trouble because we will have no means to pay what is due and we'll default.

The problem is the interest payment on the debt is starting to become a large fraction of the income of America and we are starting to look like an increasingly bad investment. And that shows in the rates we have to pay. I don't think we're in any immediate danger but spending goes up every year which means we need to borrow more and we move more toward that risky place.

And if history is to be any guide, when you hit the bad spot, everything falls apart fast in a very uncontrolled way.

So IMHO, we should ramp down spending slowly, in a controlled way to avoid having it ramped down for us in a rapid uncontrolled way. Either way, I suspect eventually spending is going to come down whether we like it or not.


I think you're just wrong though. For one, the debt is not our top problem. It's a big one, but not the top. Climate is tops. Dems care about it somewhat and pushed a huge bill through during Biden's term. Republicans don't care at all. Healthcare is another big one. Dems do an ok job, Republicans are terrible. In terms of rule of law, again, Dems do ok and Republicans just wipe their ass with the Constitution. Dems are not strongly asserting their role because they are in the minority. There were many votes to curb tariffs and war powers and they were shot down on party lines. It's also very much the fault of the conservative supreme court who have been ridiculously deferential to Trump and are allowing him to seize unprecedented power. The same conservative justices who voted to allow unlimited corporate campaign spending, who declared the president immune to prosecution, who basically nullified the emoluments clause. And it's not just a question of failed institutions, it's voters who decided to just forgive Jan 6 and reelect a traitor. There's absolutely no "both sides" to this. The right are killing this country. The left are just not saving it fast enough.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the debt. If you don't manage the debt, eventually you'll loose investors, which means you'll loose the funds to do anything. Including fix the climate. We now spend more on interest (14%) than we do on national defense (13%).

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...


"Eventually" is doing a lot of work. There's no indication we're anywhere near a threshold.

There’s also no indication that it’s not right around the corner. But it’s true, no one really knows where that threshold is. But it’s also the kind of thing that you really don’t want to know the “right” answer to, because by then it will be too late.

If you honestly think think both sides are "abusing the same power", you clearly are oblivious.

Which your proposal to abolish the filibuster further proves: it would make governing even more a "winner-takes-all" game. Or ranked choice voting: you can't even stop Republicans from gerrymandering. (And no, gerrymandering is not done by "both sides". California did it as reprisal and put provisions to get back to a fair system when Republicans stop gerrymandering. And gerrymandering is the official strategy of the GOP from bottom to top.)


Your quote "abusing the same power" appears nowhere in my post. I am saying that neither Democrats nor Republicans, when they get into power, do anything to bring the deficit down to 3% of GDP as is recommended by economists, or to constrain the military actions and executive orders of the President on their side. I'm not making a "both sides are equally bad" argument, I'm saying that neither side is doing what it would take to fix the problem.

I'm willing to go either way on the fillibuster; that was just one example which the article talks about. In particular, they talk about filibuster reform rather than abolishing it, so I may have worded it too strongly in my original post. Still, I think there's a legitimate argument that the increase in use of the filibuster over the past few decades has had the practical consequence of delegating legislative power to the Executive branch.


> I'm not making a "both sides are equally bad" argument, I'm saying that neither side is doing what it would take to fix the problem.

Close but it's a feature, not a bug - both sides are equally good at not fixing, and not even acknowledging, the problems which leads to relentless beating around the bush, like wrangling about the filibuster, gerrymandering, etc.

> In particular, they talk about filibuster reform rather than abolishing it

That's not a real problem, it's just noise.


Remember when alcohol was illegal? Ahh, the remote, halcyon, bygone days of the 1920s.

How about we treat adults like they're adults and let them make their own choices?


These are systems completely designed to prey on vulnerable people, addicts who can't control their impulse to gamble. That's their purpose. I think it's worth regulating intentionally predatory and harmful industries.

We limit alcohol advertising because it also has an addictive quality.

Limiting gambling ads the same way might be a good step.


When making decisions like this, one should consider not just the desired consequences of the policy, but the difficulty in actually implementing it. Alcohol and narcotics prohibitions fall short here.

It's hard to fully prohibit gambling (because you can play poker around a table, and it's better if that's legalized). It's much easier to prohibit banks from interacting with casinos and TV networks from letting them advertise, as those are large businesses who want to be compliant. That doesn't make gambling itself illegal, but cuts off most of its oxygen.


The problem though is that technically, legally most of this stuff is no longer classified as "gambling". It's now a "prediction market" of which team will win the game.

That's a specific problem of corruption in the current administration. It's not even clear whether this obviously absurd theory of classification will hold up in court, Arizona is already fighting it.

> Remember when alcohol was illegal?

I don’t really gamble. But I agree with you. Prohibition is never the answer.

Our current regime, however, is one where bartenders face zero liability for their patrons’ drunk driving. Making gambling companies liable for problematic gambling is a good start. Banning gambling ads, within apps and without, is a great end. I’d also argue for a cap on bet sizes, but I’m open to being talked out of that.


You actually want to ban bet maximums. Regular people get destroyed making small stupid bets on nonsense like freethrows for benchwarmers. Apps only offer those because they put a low max bet so they have little risk on a wager that is impossible to price accurately. If they couldn’t set such a low max then they couldn’t offer those nonsense wagers.

>Banning gambling ads, within apps and without, is a great end.

That's prohibition.


Of what? It certainly hasn't stopped cigarettes.

If gamblers want to gamble, is not seeing the 30 second video ad the only thing stopping them?


Of speech.

prohibition noun pro· hi· bi· tion ˌprō-ə-ˈbi-shən also ˌprō-hə- Synonyms of prohibition 1 : the act of prohibiting by authority 2 : an order to restrain or stop


Do you have a point? Alcohol and cigarette ads are regulated, explicit audio and visual content is prohibited on public airwaves, etc.

Adults can and do become addicted to gambling (and drugs, etc.) and ruin the lives of themselves and those around them.

Recognizing this fact isn't treating them like children, it's treating them like the adults they are.


Let's combine the idea of hyper-targeted advertising based on mass data collection with custom tailored addicted substances.

If I design a chemical that will specifically make you fasterik so dependent on it that you'll do any sexually depraved things that a line up of random strangers want so that they'll give you pocket change so that you can get another hit of that chemical should it be illegal for me to surreptitiously give it to you in a product that you buy from me?

Why or why not?


There's a fine line between prohibition and all-out attack, everywhere all at once, from TV internet and sports, trying to get everyone addicted to gambling, from 9 to 99 years old.

Like... cigarretes aren't prohibited. But you're hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree that we're MUCH better off now with full advertising bans, indoor smoking bans, bans on sales to minors, steep tax, etc, than what we were in the 70s with disgusting cigarrete smoke everywhere.


I guess you also think we need to stop policing drunk driving? Because the reasons for regulating gambling are similar.

That's quite a straw man. Drunk driving is and should be illegal because it puts the lives of others at risk. Alcohol is legal because it only puts the health of the drinker at risk. Generally in a free society we accept that adults should be free to make decisions that harm only themselves.

Problem gambling has a similar negative outcome profile (in terms of suicide, financial problems, etc.) as an addiction to hard drugs

It's interesting to be arguing that gambling doesn't put others at risk in the comments to a post about a broad trend of collective harm associated with loosened controls on gambling. Do you think these people exist in a vacuum?

On top of that, sports betting inevitably leads into match fixing, threatening of players etc.


I believe most of the negative impacts you're referring to are covered by existing laws concerning fraud and consumer protection. I'm in favor of making truly fraudulent and predatory behavior illegal. I don't see any evidence that the "collective harm" you mention from the article is anything other than individuals making bad financial decisions.

I believe that I, as a responsible adult, should be allowed to gamble for entertainment if I want to, and my right to do that shouldn't be taken away because a small minority of the population has low impulse control.


> I don't see any evidence that the "collective harm" you mention from the article is anything other than individuals making bad financial decisions.

Legalized gambling establishments do very little besides extract money from visitors and project negative externalities into their surroundings.

> I believe that I, as a responsible adult, should be allowed to gamble for entertainment if I want to, and my right to do that shouldn't be taken away because a small minority of the population has low impulse control.

You can believe that, and be correct in theory. In practice, the "small minority" doesn't appear to be small enough under the current regulatory regime.

It's no different than the regulation of controlled substances and other vices. Or do you have an issue with that as well, and feel you should have the right to consume as much heroin as you want?


I'm pretty liberal when it comes to drugs. I think it's a case by case basis, but I do believe that heroin and most other drugs should be legal and regulated. As long as there's demand, prohibition just leads to black markets, funnels money to cartels, and consumers ultimately get a less reliable and more dangerous product.

Is there any drug that you would consider off limits for recreational consumption? OxyContin or fentanyl for example?

I don't consider those off limits for recreational consumption in safe doses. If fentanyl were legalized, I would see a strong argument for restricting the sale of large amounts of pure fentanyl. Fentanyl lollipops with small doses, I think would be fine.

Regardless, I don't think we should stretch the metaphor between gambling and drugs too far. They are fundamentally different things.


They aren't that different, in that they are addictive, provide no value to society other than entertainment (which is not worthless by any means, but not something that is very heavily weighted in a cost/benefit analysis), and the resulting behavior of addicted individuals is highly negative and has an impact well beyond the addicted individual.

You are on an extreme fringe to put it mildly. It is your right to hold that opinion, but it also means that there's no real point in discussing this with you from what I can tell.


And yet you can't do a quick Google search to understand that "expecting adults to act like adults" is a ridiculous idea when 80% of people have NPC agency

Prohibition was a mistake and it goes a long way of sorting how people will act stupid regardless


The distinction doesn't matter in this case. The fundamental question is whether a government can compel a decentralized open-source project to change its codebase. If you believe code is speech, it's a violation of the right to free expression.

Even if you think adding "age indication" to a project is harmless, you have to consider the precedent this is setting for compelled speech in the future, potentially by regimes that you are not politically aligned with.


I suspect you are accessing their website from a European IP address. The clause you quoted is not present for users outside of the EU/UK.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47590473


That explains it. I don’t see it from my US IP address.

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake.

I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

The real problem is separating reading/writing skills from tech skills. We shouldn't stop teaching handwriting just because typing exists. And being able to read long books and essays teaches fundamental cognitive skills like attention, focus, and information processing.


That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming)

For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on those at the computer lab (as it's been done since the 90s in many schools around the world)

But for any other course such as Math, English (or whichever primary language in your country), second languages, history, etc. : that's where using tech is a mistake

A bit of tech is ok, but it cannot be "everyone does their homework and read lesson on a iPad/Chromebook"


I am pretty skeptical about the value of learning to build websites. I think it is too tempting for students to devote significant time to something that is not foundational knowledge and where they won't get any valuable feedback anyway.

It makes me think back to my writing assignments in grades 6-12. I spent considerable time making sure the word processor had the exact perfect font, spacing, and formatting with cool headers, footers, and the footnotes, etc. Yet, I wouldn't even bother to proofread the final text before handing it in. What a terrible waste of a captive audience that could have helped me refine my arguments and writing style, rather than waste their time on things like careless grammatical errors.

Anyway, I do agree with the idea of incorporating Excel, and even RStudio for math and science as tools, especially if they displace Ed-tech software that adds unnecessary abstractions, or attempts to replace interaction with knowledgeable teachers. One other exception might be Anki or similar, since they might move rote memorization out of the classroom, so that more time can be spent on critical thinking.


Building websites, I agree has little value, but using it as a way to explain basics of how the web works I think is pretty valuable. Web likely isn't going anywhere for a long time, having some basic knowledge of how it works I think very useful for a lot of people. I hate the idea of any more MS apps like Excel being regularly incorporated, but basic usage of something similar definitely can help know of how to use a useful tool/computer skill. Even in the early 90's we had computer labs for learning computer skills which I think there is value. But forcing tech everywhere into teaching is an issue IMO.

The beautiful thing about programming (which also makes edtech such an appealing dream to chase) is that you get immediate feedback from the computer and don't have to wait for someone whose attention is at least semi-scarce to mark your paper.

re: Anki. It is not as optimized but you can do SRS with physical flash-cards.

* Have something like 5 bins, numbered 1-5.

* Every day you add your new cards to bin nr. 1 shuffle and review. Correct cards go to bin nr. 2, incorrect cards stay in bin nr. 1.

* Every other day do the same with bin nr. 1 and 2, every forth with bin nr. 1, 2 and 3 etc. except incorrect cards go in the bin below. More complex scheduling algorithms exist.

* In a classroom setting the teacher can print out the flashcards and hand out review schedule for the week (e.g. Monday: add these 10 new cards and review 1; Tuesday: 10 new cards and review box 1 and 2; Wednesday: No new cards and and review box 1 and 3; etc.)

* If you want to be super fancy, the flash card publisher can add audio-chips to the flash-cards (or each box-set plus QR code on the card).


Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? Should kids be forced to use physical copies of newspapers and journal articles instead of learning how to look things up in a database?

I'm all for going back to analog where it makes sense, but it seems wrongheaded to completely remove things that are relevant skills for most 21st century careers.


> Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition?

I don't think there's anything wrong with showing kids some videos every now and then. I still have fond memories of watching Bill Nye.

> Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python?

No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way we don't allow kids learning multiplication and division to use calculators.


>> Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python?

> No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way we don't allow kids learning multiplication and division to use calculators.

I would think that it would make sense to introduce Python in the same way that calculators, and later graphing calculators are introduced, and I believe (just based on hearing random anecdotes) that this is already the case in many places.

I'm a big proponent of the gradual introduction of abstraction, which my early education failed at, and something Factorio and some later schooling did get right, although the intent was rarely communicated effectively.

First, learn what and why a thing exists at a sufficiently primitive level of interaction, then once students have it locked in, introduce a new layer of complexity by making the former primitive steps faster and easier to work with, using tools. It's important that each step serves a useful purpose though. For example, I don't think there's much of a case for writing actual code by hand and grading students on missing a semicolon, but there's probably a case for working out logic and pseudocode by hand.

I don't think there's a case for hand-drawing intricate diagrams and graphs, because it builds a skill and level of intimacy with the drawing aspect that's just silly, and tests someone's drawing capability rather than their understanding of the subject, but I suppose everyone has they're own opinion on that.

That last one kind of crippled me in various classes. I already new better tools and methods existed for doing weather pattern diagrams or topographical maps, but it was so immensely tedious and time-consuming that it totally derailed me to the point where I'd fail Uni labs despite it not being very difficult content, only because the prof wanted to teach it like the 50s.


Fwiw calculators were banned in my school. Only started to use one in university - and there it also didnt really help with anything as the math is already more complex

I was allowed to use calculators when I started algebra in seventh grade.

I found that calculators didn't help all that much once you got into symbolic stuff. They were useful for the final reductions, obviously, but for algebra the lion's share of the work is symbolic and at least the relatively cheap two-line TI calculator I was using couldn't do anything symbolic.

I know that there are calculators that can do Computer Algebra System stuff, and those probably should be held off on until at least calculus.


Until most kids are about 12 - 14 years old, they're learning much more basic concepts than you're describing. I don't think anyone is trying to take intro to computer science out of high schools or preventing an advanced student younger than that from the same.

I would rather a teacher have to draw a concept on a board than have each student watch an animation on their computer. Obviously, the teacher projecting the animation should be fine, but it seems like some educators and parents can't handle that and it turns into a slippery slope back to kids using devices.

So for most classrooms full of students in grades prior to high school, the answer to your list of (presumably rhetorical) questions is "Yes."


There's an in-between point my math teacher loved using: an overhead projector. Hand-drawn transparencies that could be made beforehand or on the fly, protected large so everyone could see, without hiding the teacher behind a computer - they'd still stand at the front of the class facing the students.

Sure, that would work too. I wouldn't say that's in-between but a technique that can be used without incorporating any modern technology at all.

This has been replaced by a webcam on a stick and a computer monitor.

Those are great examples. Not familiar with Desmos, but 3Blue1Brown style animations are great.

The problem is that people seem to want to go to extremes. Either go all out on doing everything in tablets or not use any technology in education at all.

its not just work skills, its also a better understanding that is gained from things such as the maths animations you mentioned.


> The problem is that people seem to want to go to extremes. Either go all out on doing everything in tablets or not use any technology in education at all.

I think the latter is mostly a reaction to the former. I think there is a way to use technology appropriately in theory in many cases, but the administrators making these choices are largely technically illiterate and it's too tempting for the teachers implementing them to just hand control over to the students (and give themselves a break from actually teaching).


>Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom

Maybe. Back in the day I had classes where we had to learn the rough shape of a number of basic functions, which built intuition that helped. This involved drawing a lot of them by hand. Initially by calculating points and estimating, and later by being given an arbitrary function and graphing it. Using Desmos too early would've prevented building these skills.

Once the skills are built, using it doesn't seem a major negative.

I think of it like a calculator. Don't let kids learning basic arithmetic to use a 4 function calculator, but once you hit algebra, that's find (but graphing calculators still aren't).

Best might be to mix it up, some with and some without, but no calculator is preferable to always calculator.


Skills are less important than foundation.

And Logo or BASIC >> Python in school context IMO.


> (as it's been done since the 90s in many schools around the world)

I had computer lab in a catholic grade school in the mid-late 80's. Apple II's and the class was once a week and a mix of typing, logo turtle, and of course, The Oregon Trail.


what's funny is that they don't even teach basic tech literacy but just rely on kids to figure it out!

> how to touch type

What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.


You typed out this message by hitting individual keys as your eyes searched for them? Isn’t that mentally exhausting?

> Although [touch typing] refers to typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys ... the term is often used to refer to a specific form of touch typing that involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for specific other keys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing

I think they're referring to the latter.


The strict definition of touch typing reminds me of how when I was a kid, my parents would always tell me that there’s a specific way of holding chopsticks. You gotta hold the top one like a pencil, and rest the bottom one between the crook of your fingers and your ring finger, and make sure they’re the same length and the bottom one isn’t moving and you’re just using it as a base to press against.

And then I became an adult and visited China and met actual Chinese immigrants and married a native chopstick holder. And half of them don’t hold chopsticks “the real way”. Somehow it all works out. As long as you can eat a peanut with them, you pass.

As an adult I learned that there’s also a whole lot of prescriptive bullshit that basically nobody pays attention to. The strict definition of touch typing seems like one of those. If you can type without looking at the keys, you can touch type.


I will say you are far faster touch typing proper. I never fully learned it in school. I kind of half do it. Left hand is pretty religously touch typing byt right doesnt' stay on its home row.

Just never cared to get perfect at it in school. I would get absolutely crushed on typing tests though with the kids who actually learned touch typing. They all had piano experience and could reach the modifiers while holding on to the home row still. I still can't really do that on my right hand, its like my pinky doesn't reach.


I use a Dvorak keyboard, so usually outpace the touch typers. By the strict definition, it's not technically touch typing. By any colloquial definition, it absolutely is, if I looked at the keys I'd be touching the wrong letters. I just have the Dvorak layout burned into my brain so it's what I type regardless of what the keys say.

> You gotta hold the top one like a pencil

I've heard this before too but apparently most people hold a pencil wrong anyway so it doesn't actually help.


With such a strict definition the OP’s comment becomes basically meaningless. They could be referring to using index fingers only. They could be using an alternative keyboard layout. They could mostly be using left-hand only. Pretty much any WPM between 1 and 200 seems possible with the statement: “I don’t keep my fingers on home row in between key presses.”

In many cases the understanding of the term "touch typing" isn't just "typing without looking" but a very specific way of doing so.

You should be able to type without looking at your keyboard.

But the specific 5 finger arrangement taught often as "tough typing" isn't needed for that, some common issues:

- it being taught with an orthogonal arrangement of your hand to they keyboard, that is nearly guaranteed to lead to carpal tunnel syndrome if you have a typical keyboard/desk setup. Don't angle your wrist when typing.

- Pinky fingers of "average" hands already have issues reaching the right rows, with extra small or extra short hands they often aren't usable as intended with touch typing.


You dont need to learn to touch type to avoid searching out each key individually. You just need experience.

I was taught touch typing as a kid. None of it took. I dont use the home row. I developed into the gamer home row hand positioning for typing.


I guess this is technically correct in the same way that stenographers and highly-ergonomic alternative-layout keyboard users also don’t “touch type” according to a strict definition.

If you’re capable of typing quick enough to publicly take meeting notes, then it’s fine. But if you can’t, I could see it being professionally embarrassing in the same way that not understanding basic arithmetic could be professionally embarrassing.

That’s the kind of (in)capability we’re talking about when it comes to Gen Z. Like not knowing ctrl-c ctrl-v.


My point is that there's almost nothing to teach about it. You just need to use a keyboard enough to build experience.

What could you possibly teach about touch typing besides just telling people to do typing tests or write papers over and over again?

People aren't bad typers because they weren't taught. They're bad typer because they dont type.


Zen Z doesn't types to store knowledge. They would rather record the lecture or the meeting. I put aside my fone and put it on record while I am carefully listening to the meeting. I'm not even zen z. I would rather write than type

> Zen Z doesn't types to store knowledge. They would rather record the lecture or the meeting. I put aside my fone and put it on record while I am carefully listening to the meeting. I'm not even zen z. I would rather write than type

Recordings are one of the worse ways to store knowledge for later reference, except in usual scenarios. They're very awkward to work with. The only plus is their cheap an easy to make.

Trust me, I work at a company where "documentation" is often an old meeting recording (and sometimes you have to count yourself lucky to even have that).


Previously I would have agreed with you but as of the past year or so that's out of date thanks to automatic device local transcriptions becoming good enough.

> But if you can’t, I could see it being professionally embarrassing

I had a boss that typed with one finger on each hand, it was laughable, but he was an incredible programmer, so it didn't affect him at all.


I have an "unofficial" typing style. I tried learning official touch typing but it caused immediate hand cramps.

Touch typing would probably be faster, but I've never found slow typing speeds a limiting factor in either writing or software dev.


No I don't have to search for the keys. But I don't use all the fingers of my hands and I do look at the keyboard quite often. No it's not mentally exhausting, it's the thinking that is exhausting.

I don't do it for every key but without looking, even if just sort of indirectly, I will repeatedly make mistakes. I also don't use proper finger placement. But never have I felt it limiting or slowing me down. If anything I feel like it gave me a heads up on screen typing although I still way prefer a keyboard.

Fast typing is not about throughput, it's about latency. If I only needed to type fast enough to produce the 125-something lines of code I get into production per week, I would be able to work at a word a minute. Alas, that's not how that works.

https://entropicthoughts.com/typing-fast-is-about-latency-no...


I learned how to touch type in middle school with school software like Mario teaches typing and Mavis beacon. I peaked around 80wpm and I was faster than 90% of my classmates.

A few years ago I invested in a rectilinear split keyboard which has a slightly different layout, but much more ergonomic. But interestingly I can now type 120wpm+.

I think touch typing is very similar to learning penmanship (and I guess cursive to an extent). If I followed the exact rules I learned about handwriting in school, I'd have much more legible handwriting but I'd write so much more slowly. Instead I my own way, which lets me get my thoughts out quickly, albeit not as neat as "correct" penmanship. Fortunately typing is much more lenient on this front.


In general, mastery involves taking the basic mechanics of something and making them completely automatic, freeing up cognitive resources for higher level processes. Expert pianists don't need to look down at their hands when sight reading.

> touch type

can even be harmful

IFF we interpret "touch typing" as the typical thought typing method and not just "typing without looking at the keyboard".

In general key arrangement traces back to physical limitations of type writers not ergonomics and layout choice isn't exactly ergonomic based either.

But even if it where, the biggest issue of touch typing is that it's often thought around the idea of your hands being somewhat orthogonal to your keyboard, _which they never should be_ (if you use a typical keyboard on a typcal desk setup) as it leads to angling you hands/wrist which is nearly guaranteed to cause you health issues long term if you are typing a lot.

The simple solution is to keep your wrist straight leading to using the keyboard in a way where you hand is at an angle to it's layout instead of orthogonal which in turn inhibits perfect touch typing. But still allows something close to it.

As keys are arranged in shifted columns this kinda works surprisingly well, an issue is the angle differs depending on left/right hand :/

Split or alice style keyboards can also help a bit, but I often feel man designs kinda miss the point. Especially many supposedly ergonomic keyboards aren't aren't really that ergonomic, especially if your hand is to large, small, or otherwise unusual...

Which brings us to the next point, human autonomy varies a lot, some people have just some very touch typing incompatible hands, like very short pinky fingers making that finger unusable for typical touch typing (even with normal hands it's a bit suboptimal which is why some keyboards shift the outer rows down by half a row).


Anatomy might matter if you're talking about world champion speed typing. I don't think it matters for just being competent (I say this as a man with short and fat fingers)

They're talking about long-term wrist issues and cramping, not typing speed.

Really? I can touch type and there is no way I can keep up with how fast I can think. Physics seems against you on this one.

I type code as I think of it trying to get it at least approximately right as I go, my typing speed is most definitely not what holds me back.

> It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

Some of us "a bit older" seem to have gone through a golden era of tech, where we actually learned that tech en-masse. In a class of maybe 30 students, around 20, 25 of them were able to configure dial up modems, come on IRC (servers, ports, channels needed to be configured) and do a bunch of other stuff our parents mostly considered "black magic" (except for a few tech enthusiasts), and the general concensus was, that every generation will know more and be "better" than the previous generation.

A few decades have passed.. and kids can't type anymore on a keyboard, can't print, have no idea what can be changed in the settings on their smartphone, don't know how to block ads, can't cheat in games anymore (except via pay-to-win) and have no idea where to change their instagram password.

So, now you have boomers, who can't use computers and kids, who can't use computers anymore.


Boomers are split between a demographic that is very computer literate, having worked in/around science and tech for decades, and a demo that isn't remotely literate and may not even be online.

The latter is a fairly small demo though - supposedly around a third.

The split is more by education than by age.

Kids can use computers - phones - as app appliances, but they don't understand computers.

Peak literacy is young Gen X and older millennials.


> It's important that children gain basic technical literacy

They certainly will at home.

> I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home.

In which country?

I live in Mexico and even here you really need to go to the poorest families to find a home without a laptop. Even those families have multiple smartphones. Today a smartphone is not a good replacement for a laptop but maybe in a couple of years it will be.


Even if they have a computer at home, that doesn't mean they're practicing the relevant skills. Touch typing, word processing, researching a topic online, etc. are things that need deliberate practice. Based on my own experience, using a computer at home 99% of the time meant playing video games.

The following article suggests that in the United States, about 59% of lower income households have a laptop or desktop computer, compared to 92% of upper income households.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/digital-d...


Leaving aside the wealth gap factor, which I do agree is important:

When I think back to using computers as a kid, both at school(starting in 1999) and at home I don't think it's all that black and white wrt just playing at home vs learning useful skills at school.

At some point in the early 00s my underfunded elementary school acquired a bunch of old windows 95 computers. We would have classes where we mostly did basic touch typing, MS Office etc. At home, my middle class parents had also managed to find me some old outdated clunker. And yes, most of my time at home was spent playing games, chatting with friends on msn, pirating mp3s etc.

But I'd say I learned orders of magnitude more from my frivolous activities than from whatever we did at school. At home I was learning things like: online research(into warcraft cheat codes or quest guides for Runescape etc); software troubleshooting(having to reinstall windows because I downloaded malware on limewire or otherwise borked my install somehow); fast typing(from chatting with friends about whatever 12 year olds like to discuss. Probably 90% of my typing practice back then came at home, not at school, and there was no touch typing. I could type 100+ wpm on just 4 fingers by the time I was in middle school. Never actually learned to properly touch type until I had force myself into it 5 years ago due to RSI); English as a second language(from various forums, irc, etc, hard to avoid back then); And I believe one of my first forays into programming was trying to get a cracked game with a broken .bat installer off TPB to work. I had a friend who got into it via Morrowind modding.

Actually, come to think of it, most of computer class was also in reality spent sneakily playing flash games and/or messing around with the computer settings just to screw with the next student/teacher to use it.

Even generalising beyond computers, I think a remarkable portion of the skills and interests that end up defining us as people, can be traced back to stuff we did trying to avoid boredom as children.

To summarise though, I do think computers have a place in school. But especially at an elementary school level, I think play should be a significant portion of their use, because play is how kids explore the world and themselves.


> Based on my own experience, using a computer at home 99% of the time meant playing video games.

I ended up with a non-home-row style of touch-typing just by being forced to get chat messages out quickly in StarCraft multiplayer. So it's at least possible to learn it from that, even if most don't.


Yes. Kids can learn a lot of they do use computers to do things like research things.

Many parents don't themselves have the technical literacy to properly teach things like what thr filesystem is.

Just wanted to point out that you and other people who responded to you basically do agree on same points, you are just presenting it differently. I just find it amusing/endearing that we argue with each other even when we do agree on the core issue. :D

Touch typing is not a basic tech skill, and also pretty useless on the long term. I expect dictation to take over very soon, as finally voice recognition is getting to be usable, and commonplace.

>this is why I run ad blockers.

It's important to note that this isn't fixed by ad blockers. To avoid this kind of fingerprinting, you need to disable JavaScript or use a browser like Firefox which randomizes extension UUIDs.


Yes, but FF also prevents the extension scanning. It's scandalous that Chrome allows this!

The key phrase is "kind of thing". It certainly does matter what kinds of things we focus our attention on as a species. I think you would have to be quite cynical to think that progress in spaceflight over the past 60+ years hasn't had a positive impact.

> I think you would have to be quite cynical to think that progress in spaceflight over the past 60+ years hasn't had a positive impact.

Spaceflight aside, how exactly has humanity started to outgrow war, inequality, and climate mismanagement? Call me cynical, but I'm not seeing it.


They were making a legitimate point a humorous way. The problem of manually typing in IP addresses has been solved by DNS for over 50 years.

I haven't had to type an IP address to access something on my home network for at least a decade, except for (occasionally) my xxx.1 router.

I think this is a false dichotomy. If you're passionate about your craft, you will make a higher quality product. The real division is between those who measure the success of a project in:

- revenue/man-hour, features shipped/man-hour, etc.

- ms response time, GB/s throughput, number of bugs actually shipped to customers, etc.

People in the second camp use AI, but it's a lot more limited and targeted. And yes, you can always cut corners and ship software faster, but it's not going to be higher quality by any objective metric.


Most mathematicians don't understand the fields outside of their specialization (at a research level). Your assumption that intuition and applications are limited to hobbyists ignores the possibility of enabling mathematicians to work and collaborate more effectively at the cutting edge of multiple fields.

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