Apologies for being overly critical, but I think the boss or the company deserve much more wrath than the poorly-paid telemarketing person you actually talk to.
If we want spammy telemarketing to stop, we have to make it unprofitable. The way to make it unprofitable is to ensure it results in less sales. Decreasing call volume decreases sales. Etc.
There are legal avenues, but it's incredibly difficult to follow through. Literally every time I've asked who was calling me - the name of the company, anything - I've been hung up on, instantly.
No, I'm referring to the service the original post is about.
But if you're concerned about my actions, I don't yell or say mean things to telemarketers either. Depending on how much free time I have, I either keep them on the line, or I try to find out who's calling me so I can complain about them and hear the sound of them hanging up instantly
I'm not sure that "the boss deserves more wrath than the poor shmoe doing the calling". I've talked my way through a number of "Rachel, from Cardholder Services" calls. The human "service" reps ask for card number, expiration date, last 4 of social, billing ZIP code, and sometimes the CVV/CID/CSC. Those "service" reps must know that's enough info to start using the card. They certainly know it by the 3rd time they're told to soak their heads or pound sand or jump in a lake. When I've given an expired Visa gift card's CC number, I've gotten a very curt dismissal. I feel pretty certain that everyone involved in "Rachel from Cardholder Services" knows exactly what's going on, and that it's a scam and illegal.
Those poorly-paid "telemarketers" are part of the problem. They deserve all they get.
You're confusing telemarketers with phone scammers. Phone scammers try to call you to install malware or steal you CC info, etc. Telemarketers call you to try and sell you something or get you to donate to the police union.
Telemarketers are poor schmucks trying to work a job. Their companies generally will abide if you request the do not call list. Scammers probably will not.
Any call I get that starts with a robocall from "Ann" or "Rachel" or "Barbara" from Cardholder Services, or Account Services, or Microsoft Tech Support is basically fraudulent from the start . Robocalling is stricly controlled, and I use Linux. Next, we have Caller ID spoofing, some of the area codes are non-existent, and maybe the number is of the wrong format. After that, the failure to identify who they work for clearly is a big red flag, as is the use of names like "Edward" or "Candy" for people with South Asian accents.
Even before the no-call list became effective, there wasn't a lot of difference between a telemarketer and a scammer. For several years, I politely asked for a written copy of their no-call policy, every single telemarketing call. I got one. Telemarketing was a very shady grey area business long before the fraudsters made it legendary.
Sure, they are part of the problem, but are they responsible for creating the problem? If you remove every telemarketing caller, does the telemarketing industry disappear?
Do we blame Hitler or every person in Germany? The leaders bear the majority of the responsibility.
Why, yes, if we remove all the humans that do the scamming, then the scam industry disappears. Actually, all we have to do is make the work so unpleasant that very few people will do it, and then only at a high wage, which renders the whole scamming thing uneconomical. And then it disappears.
With respect to the 3rd Reich, the Allies didn't let people who pled that they were only following orders off the hook. Neither would most moral philosophers today. If you know you're scamming people, and the "service" reps for Cardholder Services certainly do know tht, then you're morally accountable.
If all (or the large plurality) of us would listen to the robocall, hit 1 or 5 or whatever to get to a human, and then waste the human's time, the telemarketers would end up out of business.
Of course, if the FCC did it's damn job, and enforced valid caller ID, the whole thing would go away, too. The fact that this hasn't happened is a crying shame, and indicative of some major failures in the US Federal government.
Well, yes. But that's a simplistic case. Evidence shows that no matter how terrible a job is, some one will do it. It's just that as jobs get worse, fewer and fewer are willing to do the job. The amount of scammers willing to do the unpleasant task of dealing with 419-eaters and Scambaiters at a particular wage goes down.
Free market economics tells us that as the supply of some good goes down, the price almost certainly rises, all things being equal.
When the supply of "service" reps/scammers goes down, we have 3 cases:
1. Demand for that labor stays the same. In this case labor rates go up. This will make scamming less economical, driving some scam factories out of business.
2. Demand for "service" reps goes up: Same as case (1), but worse for the scam factories. More of them go out of business.
3. Demand for "sevice" reps/scammers goes down: this is really a case of "all things don't stay the same", because in this case, scam factories employ fewer "service" reps. Maybe some scam factories leave the market, maybe all scam factories make fewer calls a day.
In any of the 3 cases, WE WIN! Not as many scams are perpetrated, and the amount of calls goes down. Of course, an ideological free market analysis almost always gets things either partially or wholly wrong. We also don't know what the relationship between wages and number of people willing to put up with hobbyist scambaiters is. It's possible that like freeways on a Saturday, even a small worsening of job conditions makes the number of people willing to work at scam factories go way down. Or not. Unknowable. I just think that jerking the "service" reps chains as hard as possible is the only rational response.
Sounds like an opportunity for a system that plays one round of Lenny (or similar) then comes clean, admitting that it's a recording and we hope the telemarketer sees the funny side of it, "now please put this number on your do not call list for this and all other companies that you make calls for"... Then maybe a little pep talk that encourages the telemarketer to tell their boss to "stick this poxy job" because life will be better when they move on..
The person you're actually speaking to has no control over actually calling you- they're just logged into their desk which their bosses at the company code up to an autodialer, so as soon as they log into their desk it starts calling you.
Just tell them, "please add me to your do not call list" (magic words!) and they can put you in their software as DNC.
I'm on the Do Not Call list, so they are actually criminals. They're offering debt services (which I don't need) which I assume are a scam. Any moment I'm wasting of their time is a moment they're not scamming someone else.
So there's the national do not call list which doesn't work that well, then each company has their own internal Do Not Call list. If you ask the person calling you to add them to their DNC they will and the calls will stop.
I do both, and oddly they keep coming, and file complaints with the FTC. The national list works well -- violators (if they can be found) are liable to prosecution.
I'm sure scam artists and burglars are just trying to pay the bills too. If you choose to do something so anti-social, then sometimes you'll have trouble.
Not taking it personally is healthy for people on both sides of the phone-line.
I tend to just hang-up without saying a thing. I highly doubt they take it personally. If they are bothered by it, they are not going to last long as a telemarketer anyway.
Also the call is often given away by the slight delay and sometimes music whilst their computer hands the outbound call to an operator. There's the signal to hang up.
A quick "sorry, he recently passed away" is just as fast, and probably reduces future telemarketing.
On the one hand, the callers are humans with dehumanizing jobs who probably just want to have a non-awful conversation for a few minutes before returning to the auto-dialer to get rejected yet again. On the other hand, they get fired for not making their numbers, and their managers listen in on their calls to make sure they keep pushing the hard sell. On balance, I tend to go for polite, quick refusal. I wouldn't mind chatting for a few minutes, but they would probably get in trouble for that.
Nothing wrong with them getting fired -- it opens a job for someone else who was unemployed. The net effect is the same average wages paid into the labor force.
Whaaa...? "Nothing wrong with getting you killed -- it opens a partner for someone else who was single. The net effect is the same average amount of coupling." Do you even see individual humans anymore?
Wait, you think these scammers--they are not telemarketers--believe they work for Microsoft or Amex and don't know they are lying? We're supposed to be polite to criminals?
Yes, but I don't care about them in any way because of the way in which they've chosen to get their bills paid.
A quick "no thanks" gets them on the way to harassing the next person. And we don't want that, do we?
I don't actually believe you really give a shit about telemarketers pay at all; i've read other people say the same thing as you and it just doesn't sound convincing at all.
It's like when people say "well, you have to respect other people's beliefs". No...no, you don't. There's no persuasive argument for that assertion whatsoever. I accept that they hold those beliefs - like I accept the reality that some people can "offer" other members of society nothing other than the ability to make phone calls on other people's behalf. for profit, to people who don't want to receive them but who have no technical or legal way of preventing them - but I'd rather they didn't. There should be an opt-in list you have to sign up to to receive random phone calls at home from people hawking tat and services you don't need, and anyone doing this when you're not on the list should end up with a fine/jail sentence, but until that happens I'm going to waste as much of their time as possible.
Yeah, so don't seek jobs at shitty places. Yeah yeah yeah the whole "beggars can't be choosers thing". Unless the telemarketer is literally your only option whatsoever, then I'm sure you have a choice of flipping burgers.
Someone made a similar comment and was severely down-voted -- be an adult, say no thanks, and hang up the phone.
If you're being called extremely consistently at the same inconvenient time, then your case is extraordinary, take some measures to make sure the company doesn't call you again (no call list, whatever else) -- don't take your frustration out on the person who's turn it is to call you.
I stated this before, but if you think about it, telemarketers are just sales people who work over the phone. Even when they're being overbearing, no one treats sales people this shitty in person.
> If you're being called extremely consistently at the same
> inconvenient time, then your case is extraordinary, take
> some measures to make sure the company doesn't call you
> again (no call list, whatever else) -- don't take your
> frustration out on the person who's turn it is to call
> you.
There is a large group of people for whom there is literally no way of stopping them calling. That's the point you don't seem to understand. You're saying essentially "it's not their fault that they're illegally harassing you having taken steps to hide their identity so you can't report them". It's a moronic argument!
You're conflating "being an adult" with "meekly accepting that some people are going to phone you in the evening when you're relaxing with your family and try and bullshit you into giving them money without giving them a piece of your mind". All of the phone calls are inconvenient because they all waste my time; when are they ever not inconvenient?
You might just as well describe crack dealers as "businessmen, just after an honest buck".
You're telling me, that you, as a grown functioning adult, can't think of a solution to the problem of someone calling your phone number illegally repeatedly?
Change your number? Threaten to sue? Actually sue? Call the parent company? Call whatever company that is hiring them (whose products they're trying to sell you), and complain?
How "large" is this group of people? Are you sure the loud complainers on the internet aren't causing overestimation on your part?
If you're not trying to be interrupted, unplug your phone/silence the ringer. Then you definitely won't get interrupted.
They may not be inconvenient if they are selling something you actually want. While this is unlikely, it is possible, this is the same rationale for other forms of advertising/marketing.
BTW, the same derogatory tone with which you mention "crack dealers", people also used (and still use) for people who sell pot (which is now legal in a few areas). Pot and crack are not the same, but the tone with which you're criticizing people who sell crack cocaine the substance is the same tone that people used while weed was illegal (and still use today).
Expecting someone to change their number to protect themselves from telemarketers is asinine.
> Threaten to sue? Actually sue? Call the parent company?
Threaten whom? The telemarketer? Instant hang-up. Their boss? Good luck getting them on the phone. Their actual company? Good luck getting a telemarketer to tell you that information; that's an instant-hang-up.
> Call whatever company that is hiring them (whose products they're trying to sell you), and complain?
Assuming there's even a legitimate item being sold, that's an interesting idea. The next time I get an offer to get an estimate for having siding put on my residence, I'll take them up on it.
I'm afraid, though, that the person who shows up to the apartment complex I'm renting from will just be a local contractor, who's actually completely innocent party who was duped by a "marketing company" into paying money for leads. Then I'll have wasted their time. I'd feel bad about that; not about a telemarketer.
Change my number...to what? They're already calling at random, or have got "my" number, so that changes nothing.
Threaten to/actually sue...who? Number withheld; comedy foreign accent. I'm going to hire a private detective or hacker? Abduct them and bring them to the UK for trial?
They're often doing a survey on stuff like spending habits etc so it's not obvious who they're representing, or it's fraud like helping me "get money back" from a bank or insurance company. You understand these are criminals calling me, right?
"How "large" is this group of people? Are you sure the loud complainers on the internet aren't causing overestimation on your part?"
Huh? I'm only concerned with me and the calls I receive.
"They may not be inconvenient if they are selling something you actually want. While this is unlikely, it is possible, this is the same rationale for other forms of advertising/marketing"
Lol! That's adorable.
"BTW, the same derogatory tone with which you mention "crack dealers", people also used (and still use) for people who sell pot (which is now legal in a few areas). Pot and crack are not the same, but the tone with which you're criticizing people who sell crack cocaine the substance is the same tone that people used while weed was illegal (and still use today)."
Pot! Lol! You mean reefer? Cannabis should be legal; to grow, sell and consume. If you sell crack you're a cunt, though, because crack is exclusively used by end of the line idiots who sadly don't always die before they've caused other people to suffer.
This happens all the time, scammers calling from India via voip and scaring elderly people into installing malware onto their Windows computers.
The police say they can do nothing about it, but this service would be a perfect way to make these scams unprofitable by tying up their operators.
>> no one treats sales people this shitty in person.
We have "door knockers" where I live (Ontario, Canada) who present themselves as representatives of gas and energy companies (and some have even gone so far as to say they work for the government) who try and get you to show them your energy bill and/or try to get into your basement to give you a "free inspection" and then get you to sign up for something you don't want.
In my experience, saying "no thanks, not interested" (in person) just makes them more aggressive in their claims with the same scripted retorts- i.e. they're there in an official capacity (they're not), all the other neighbors let them sign up (probably not), they have a photo id (that anyone with computer skills can reproduce) and that they're there to save you money (doubtful).
They show up in my neighborhood every couple of months, and after a while, you sorta get worn out by the routine and find that being rude/abrupt is the easiest (and sometimes only) way to get rid of them.
I didn't want to make the point that it was NEVER warranted -- just that it was very rare for it to happen. Obviously, people do get into disagreements that may even turn violent in person. My point is that if someone isn't in your scenario (which I suspect most are not, they're just piling on with the "down with all telemarketers" bandwagon), they should look to other options, before making someone else's life very difficult through technology.
"very difficult"? I'm not casting a nam-shub on them; I'm just giving them the option of talking on the phone, which is literally what they get paid to do.
Like I said in my comment above, it's not cruelty.
You basically picked up on two words out of the entire comment, then misquoted me (I did not call it cruel)...
My point is simple, you're choosing to be rude, and that is fine, completely your choice (especially given what you've stated about what it's like where you live). But that reaction is not necessarily warranted for the person that gets 1 call every few months from a telemarketer.
Bravo, you have done an incredible long troll job, posting in the forum like a telemarketer talks on the phone, pushing BS motte&bailey logic to trick or wear down people.
> I stated this before, but if you think about it, telemarketers are just sales people who work over the phone. Even when they're being overbearing, no one treats sales people this shitty in person.
Sure they do, in similar situations like door-to-door sales. They're pushy, annoying, and coming to you, not the other way around. Often their whole business relies on screwing over old people. Anything that can be done to ensure they bug fewer people in a day is a public service.
>> Often their whole business relies on screwing over old people.
My retired parents live on the same block as me, and I'm always telling them to never let in or hand over personal information to a "door knocker" (someone hawking energy savings or a free inspection). Those guys definitely take a different tack with older people-- one guy who I turned down moved on to my dad and told him he was from the government, which was an outright lie.
Of all the people who knock on my door, the energy salespeople are by far the worst, because they're incredibly aggressive and use shady tactics. There are tons of horror stories about them in Ontario, Canada [1][2][3]. I would love to see an outright ban on door-to-door energy sales here.
I find myself called inconsistently at different times (often inconvenient, sometimes not), from different numbers, with the same pitch ("Free install of a home security system!").
I have told them I am ineligible (I don't own a home), that I am uninterested (satisfied with my current security situation), that I believe them to be a scam in the first place, and that I would prefer that they stop calling. I have asked to be removed from their list. I have asked to be put on their "do not call" list. I have submitted the numbers on the FCC web page. I still receive about 1-2 calls a month from them. Their EV from calling me is zero (or negative, if I manage to track them down). If they are really interested in wasting their time, they can do it without wasting mine as well.
Seems like bullying behaviour to be unkind to them.
A quick "no thanks" and hang up is enough.