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The Micronesian island of Yap has stone money too heavy to move (bbc.com)
89 points by MiriamWeiner on May 6, 2018 | hide | past | favorite | 41 comments


I don’t think currency is a good explanation for the use of these stones - they seem more like assets, such as real estate or gems.

“The value of stone money has always been fluid, challenging the Western concept that currency value is pre-determined and fixed”

The value of commodities and real estate continually change in relation to currencies and each other.

“The coins are valued by their size – they range from 7cm to 3.6m in diameter – as well as their ornateness and even for the sheer difficulty in obtaining the rock. How much a coin is worth also depends on who you give it to, and what for.”

Sounds similar to gemstones or jewelry. What if these stones were faceted and fit on a ring? It doesn’t sound to me like this is a currency system. It’s simply assets that they use for trade.


It's not the stones that have value IMO - It sounds like they're more like a physical representation of more abstract values like "honour" and "respect". A physical token to represent these concepts can then be placed around a dance floor and to the people there, that looks awesome to them.

But if, say, a foreigner use a machine tool to carve one such stone in 3 days and transport it into the island to sell it to the residents, it's not going to be worth much, compared to the stone that's been in one of their families for decades, and where a few years ago they did a ritual with their son with it.

Going further, if said foreigner marries into a local family, and then performs a ritual with his first born son, in front of the newly crafted stone, the ritual involving the whole village, suddenly the stone that didn't have value, would now be valuable and accepted in trade. And later on, if now grown-up son's child commits a mistake and harms another family, that stone can then be offered as an apology.

It has a corollary to our own currency, but the values they represent are different - in our society, currency represents the values of "productivity", "offering what people want" and "cleverness".

Anyway, that's my speculation.


> It doesn’t sound to me like this is a currency system. It’s simply assets that they use for trade.

The concepts fade into each other pretty easily. Stones => gems => gold => gold-backed paper => payer


How many currencies are backed by gold? Certainly not the USD.


Not today, but historically it was.

See the Coinage Act of 1792, which set a "dollar" as 371 4/16 grains of silver or 24 3/4 grains of gold.


Prior to 1930, pretty much every western currency was backed by gold (and sometimes silver).


This is a delightful example of the flexibility of the human concept of money.

I particularly love the story (which doesn’t seem to be mentioned here) of the stone that sank on the voyage back from the quarry. The islanders discussed it afterwards and decided that it still counted. Someone owns a giant stone on the ocean floor that they can use to pay others, and as long as everyone else agrees, it works.


> This is a delightful example of the flexibility of the human concept of money.

I don't agree. I see it as an example of a clear misuse of the word money. Just because they have value that doesn't mean they are money. Those stones aren't used as a payment method for goods and services any more than a sack of grain or bestowing an honorary title. Heck, they fail even the most basic characteristics of money: serving as a unit of account (each stone disk is valued differently and arbitrarily) and a store of value (their value varies with how it's used).


as long as everyone else agrees, it works

You could sum up the history of money with this line.


I wonder if Douglas Adams was aware of this when he wrote:

    the Triganic Pu has its own very special problems. It exchange rate of eight Ningis
    to one Pu is simple enough, but since Ningi is a triangular rubber coin six thousand
    eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu.
    Nigis are not negotiable currency, because Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling
    small change.


It's not much different from Bitcoin really. Who owns a particular coin is based entirely on the consensus of who owns what, and for a coin to change hands you just tell everyone it has.


What we REALLY need is these Micronesian money stones to be logged on the immutable blockchain.


For the record, I had a vision of the blockchain here being a physical chain that you thread through these stones instead of a virtual ledger.


Pretty sure yap.io just got Series A based on your post here.


Seems like those stones are harder to steal than Bitcoin from the average exchange :D


But a lot easier than getting them from a hardware wallet like a Ledger or Trezor. Exchanges are hacked because of human stupidity or laziness. Hardware wallets are significantly harder to hack.


I actually was expecting a reference to bitcoin in the article, as this stone money was talked about on bitcoin forums as early as 2011 IIRC. It was considered quite a good analog.


I think it's also similar, to a lesser degree, to modern card-based banking, in which all the money physically sits in a vault and only changes hands virtually. (But this lacks the concept of ownership being determined by distributed consensus.)


>I think it's also similar, to a lesser degree, to modern card-based banking, in which all the money physically sits in a vault and only changes hands virtually.

That is in no way how modern banking works.

Only about 1/7th of the money in peoples bank accounts in the US has a physical counterpart in any bank vault, almost all of the "money" in bank accounts is purely virtual. Most money today is not printed by the mint but instead wizarded into existence in a fashion pretty much the same as how world of warcraft gold is created, but with regulatory restrictions in place around the wizardry to create desired economic outcomes.

When a crisis prompts the population to collectively attempt to withdraw more than this reserve 1/7th, it's called a "run on the bank". The bank is unable to fulfill it's obligations[1], and economies break down as faith in the currency collapses. This is exactly what happened to Cypris in 2012. The whole system basically hinges on a significant majority of the population not scrutinizing the banking sector too closely.

If you'd like to know more, there are quite a few great youtube videos on fractional reserve banking, and it's absolutely worth investing an hour to watch one of the longer ones. This one is pretty good and approachable, although it's certainly biased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC6RSau7r8

[1] It's actually more complex than this. Central banks can help prop up other banks in this case, but central banks also have their limits in the case of a nation-wide run on multiple banks.


The reason most of the money isn't in the bank vaults isn't because it's "virtual" or was created out of thin air - it's far more prosaic than that. It's just because it's been lent out by the bank.

In principle, if everyone who the bank had loaned money to was able to immediately repay it, then you could unwind everything and make everybody whole again. The bank run occurs because this can't happen - the people the bank has loaned the money to simply cannot repay immediately, because they've spent the loan on non-liquid assets.

The fundamental purpose of the bank in such a system is to fund long-term, risky and therefore expensive debt (such as to someone who wants to start a business) with short-term, secure and therefore cheap debt (eg a savings account).


when a bank lends out money, that money ends up (for most part nowadays) in another person's ... bank account.


Very few people realize that when they give their money to the bank, the bank owns 100% of the money and all you get is a promise by the bank to let you withdraw an equivalent amount money with certain restrictions (usually also insured by the FDIC).

With fractional reserve banking the bank isn’t lending out your money... they’re lending out their own money, and you also have a contract with the bank for a similar amount of money. When a crisis like Cypress happens, it isn’t a failure of the bank to return its customers money, it’s a failure of the bank to honor their contracts.


Oh yeah, I forgot about fractional reserve banking. I did learn this at some point, but it's not something I think about on a daily basis.


I am doing initial stone offering in my backyard. Starting in two days, supply is limited so value can only go up, bring your friends so they don't miss opportunity as well!


Maybe therefore the cryptocurrency Nano was formerly known as RaiBlocks (while the orginal currency on Yap was rai stones).



Years back, I had a friend from Micronesia. We were at a bar and he was in awe of the bathroom token, as it was round and had a hole in the center.

He told me all about the stone money. When he told me how they would carry these things on their boats, I asked what happens when the boat sinks.

He said that the stone was still considered the owner's money, and was thus understood to be valid payment.


>The value of stone money has always been fluid, challenging the Western concept that currency value is pre-determined and fixed.

All money systems have had inflation and deflation. I doubt it's even possible to design a currency that stays fixed in value.

Actually, these stones are more likely to remain noninflationary/nondeflationary than either old (gold-based) or modern (fiat) currencies: because while gold mines don't scale perfectly with the size of the economy and fiat isn't guaranteed to scale with anything, the ability of people to carve giant stone disks sounds like it would advance quite closely in lockstep with general industrial capacity. So in a funny way they're actually closer to be fixed! In history, problems have been caused both by gold's inability to easily expand when new resources other than mineable land were introduced, and fiat currency's ability to expand way too easily in the event of a political failure. Maybe we should switch ;)


Hmm, I'll stick with the Triganic Pu thankyou very much.


Could you break that down into some fiddling small change Ningi's for me?


Much previous coverage. There are many other interesting value-objects in the pacific, not just these. I have a small collection. Cassowary bones through stone rings. It's quite interesting how widespread the stone ring is as a prehistoric object of value - neolithic China, many Polynesian/Micronesian/Pacific islands, etc. Holey beads were also widely traded by the Romans and other empires and have often been found very far afield. I guess "hangs on a thread" was the killer feature there. If only it were so easy for modern startups...


Not long ago (year or two) a far more in depth piece about this particular currency was posted on HN. The article as well as the subsequent comment chain was delightful and informative. Does anyone remember either, and would they be so kind as to post links? I have tried searching and come up short on both counts. Any help, as well as any other interesting links related to this topic, would be great appreciated.


Perhaps this Nick Szabo essay? http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/


I like that Yap is "pay" backwards.


The stones provide scarcity and a means of introducing new currency into the money supply.

The actual transferrence process could be modernized with a traditional database, or a decentralized blockchain. The claims to the stones could even be turned into ERC721 non-fungible tokens, or for even greater liquidity, each one could represent some large quantity of fungible ERC20 tokens, so that people could own a small percentage of a stone instead of an all-or-nothing proposition.


Wow it didn't take long for the first un ironic blockchain comment.


Well...and the West has gold backing (a part of) its currencies that is also too heavy to move.


As opposed to using the notoriously lightweight mineral we call gold...


We tend to deal in small amounts of gold, not human-sized statues of it. These stones are enormous.


You've seen the pictures of pallets of gold bricks we keep around right? It's not exactly portable. :D


Good idea, less theft.




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