> Enormous amounts of people travel their own regions. What planet do you live on? Go hang out in a CIS platzkart, a budget Asian bus... You will encounter them - no joke - by the millions.
Ahm, yes they travel for recreation and for the spirit while working. Just like your typical digital nomad. I know, you've asked the millions. I'm also acquainted with a fair share of international students who travel a lot and study in "the west". None of those comes from a remotely disenfranchised background, which in most "developing" countries is the majority of people...
> And if you think Russia or the CIS countries are "empty", you're dreaming. As someone who has traveled to tons of places, I consider that region to have some of the coolest travel destinations no matter what you're interested in. From Moscow to Kamchatka to the shores of Georgia, there's really something for everyone.
Kamchatka is cool for sure. Georgia as well. I just don't know how you do your digital nomadism in the former (you need to speak Russian, probably be used to crappy internet et al.). Just a simple question: you've been there, alone, without knowing Russian and have worked there?
And Georgia is probably Sochi in disguise? Does the average Russian do cross-country flights there? Not from what I've heard...
> ... What? How would that prevent someone from going somewhere? So many options, from cancellable hotel reservations to Couchsurfing hosts to hostels... If you can't figure that out you really should not be going to a foreign country.
If you want to have a visa from most countries you need to add a schedule. And I'm quite sure couchsurfing isn't going to cut it. And for most hotels/hostels in the West you need a credit card. So: how many Russians/Indians/... own a credit card usable with your standard western european hostel? A tiny fraction of the population, because they don't need it at all except for (quite expensive) travel.
> I am not sure what to make of your Wikipedia link. If you meant to imply that Russia is a richer-than-average country, well, the numbers simply do not bear that out (Russia sits about a third lower than the global median income.)
Well, it's richer than any African country, most of South-America and most of Asia (except for Japan and SK). So yeah, it's rich compared to all these "bad passport" countries producing so many leisure-travelers. What is the global "median" income btw. and where did you get it?
> Thankfully that's easy to look up! The average American family has around $40,000 in liquid checking and savings according to the latest US Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, so no prob to that one. (If you're wondering how that works with the terrible Twitter statistic of most Americans not having $400)
Oh, is it. I just scrolled through the Excel-sheet linked by Business Insider. Didn't find that number. But, guess what! – I've found another number: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/27/heres-how-much-money-america... - just looks like there's a lot of Americans who can't just travel for 3 months with an average amount of many available. So I doubt that any average guy from "poorer" countries can do that...
> Regarding your human trafficking comment, those fleeing conflict are in an unusual situation globally.
Ah yes, the people fleeing conflict from Nigeria, Sambia, Ivory Coast. Yes, they are all paying a lot more than they had to for the privilege of dying in a boat in the mediterranean.
> If you have never applied for a visa, you may also find it useful to know that many things are taken into account. Your bank balance is more of a box to check and a fairly small part of the equation, all things considered.
Ah. And so what is a bigger part of the equation if the box is unchecked?
> I like how this is an opinion you've formed by writing weird and incorrect comments on HN. I have had tens of Couchsurfing guests from very poor places. I have had guests who hitchhiked from Turkey to Amsterdam, eating donated bread and peanut butter.
Turkey is not really poor either?! Also you need a visa and a travel insurance for round about 100€. So he had at least some savings before leaving. Also, if you're invited by a resident, getting a visa is quite easy for the EU I guess.
> I have had guests that flew from Russia on a $30 flight, and that was their largest expense. It is extremely possible to travel in this way if you are poor, and even if your passport sucks.
Oneway flight to Europe from Russia, without money, without a visa (costs 30-60€) and without health insurance. Stop telling bullshit.
> Budget hostels, Flixbuses, the 24hr McDonald's when they need a spot to charge their phone. They exist, and they exist in fairly large numbers. You'd be surprised.
Did you ever go with one of these flixbuses and experience the nice and friendly policemen ;)? What kind of visa do these non-Schengen-travellers you know have that they can apparently travel as long as they want through Europe?
> Finally, I'm not sure if not reading the comment you're replying to is just something you do, but I would recommend replying appropriately. Again, I'm not talking about any sort of "digital nomadism". What I'm talking about is distinctly different and separate.
well, this seems to be a misunderstanding, the blog post (from 2017 btw) talks about digital nomadism I think. What are you talking about?
You don't really seem to get the idea of staying on topic whatsoever, do you?
My comment was very clear: if you are willing to live a low-budget existence, then this type of randomized living is possible for most people worldwide, even those with crappy circumstances. All you need is a smile and a thumb to stick out.
I have no idea where you even got half the things in your comment from. I did not ever mention international students, the quality of the internet, visa invitations or most of the things you're talking about.
To briefly respond: yes, I've traveled extensively with Flixbuses; it's very possible get multiple Schengen visas (the next ones are not as had as the first); €100 is absolutely excessive for Schengen health insurance; I have indeed traveled and worked simultaneously in those regions - with no Russian skills; and no, I explicitly mentioned why refugees cannot usually get tourist visas.
>bullshit
Again, if you actually went outside and met any of these people, you would realize the ways in which many of them actually travel. Ever heard of a multi entry visa?
Ultimately, the proof is out there, in the hordes of hyper budget travelers worldwide. Discussing whether or not they exist is pointless. If I'm standing in front of a tree, and you keep making confusingly worded arguments about how trees can't possibly exist, then we're not going to end up agreeing.
If you would like to meet some of these hyper-budget travelers, choosing destinations near-randomly, then I implore you to go try Couchsurfing; it's a fascinating way to meet people of all walks of life. If you'd rather keep thinking these people are mythical creatures, well, then, you can do that too :)
> You don't really seem to get the idea of staying on topic whatsoever, do you?
First I responded with the fact that tourist visa require cash (a point, which you haven't invalidated), then you responded that you never talked of tourist visa – so: on what visa do people enter then, if they're not working (e.g. the digital nomads)?
> My comment was very clear: if you are willing to live a low-budget existence, then this type of randomized living is possible for most people worldwide, even those with crappy circumstances. All you need is a smile and a thumb to stick out.
Yes. However I fear that randomized travel through Africa might end up with you dead as an human sooner than later. (at least that's the outlook of a Nigerian acquaintance (priest though) who went by plane everywhere, "streets are not safe").
> €100 is absolutely excessive for Schengen health insurance
yeah. But you need that. At some point. So you need to have quite a bit of cash.
> I have indeed traveled and worked simultaneously in those regions - with no Russian skills; and no, I explicitly mentioned why refugees cannot usually get tourist visas.
well, I have been to Bulgaria and the experience of buying train tickets was "interesting" as well as trying to pay with cards... But probably Kamchatka is a lot more tourist friendly, who knows.
To the refugee tourist visa: why are there stricter requirements and can you provide a source for your claim? At least for all the "non-refugee-status-eligible"-people, getting a visa is certainly possible (and they include countries as Nigeria, Ivorycoast, Sambia, Ghana...) and should be very easy if your claims are true.
> Again, if you actually went outside and met any of these people, you would realize the ways in which many of them actually travel. Ever heard of a multi entry visa?
Uhm yes https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-defines-rules-for-g...
so you've been to Schengen 3 times (at at least 40€ apiece) while _not working_ (remember, these are no digital nomads and their visa forbids work...) for no longer than 90 days, traveled back, worked in your home-country, made enough there to fill up your bank account (you'll have used a bit of money in Europe and I doubt you can survive on the move below 3€ a day – and that's quite a bit of money everywhere).
That's a very interesting biography for sure. There has to be some journalism or twitter-thread on that?
> Ultimately, the proof is out there, in the hordes of hyper budget travelers worldwide. Discussing whether or not they exist is pointless. If I'm standing in front of a tree, and you keep making confusingly worded arguments about how trees can't possibly exist, then we're not going to end up agreeing
Well, I've frequented hostels and flixbuses and eastern european trains alike. And nowhere, I've encountered hordes of (globally poor) Africans, Russians, Indians, South-Americans or South-East-Asians on their hyper-budget-travels. Maybe I was not budgety enough. Maybe these people don't do touristy things. I don't think they exist. What I know of are (a) relatively rich students from developing nations doing low budget travel on their convenient Schengen student visa and (b) definitely rich (in a global context) first-world-people doing low-budget-travels. It works, but a) you need cash (which in the west is easy to come by) and b) you need a visa, which is kind of interdependent, unless c) you get a visa to work, which is relatively rare.
I guess we are mostly misunderstanding each other, for an example: India.
I don't think that any of those "subsumed" at the 20% level here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India#/media/File:I...] travel Europe (or India) on a hyper budget at all with modalities anyone here would consider "travel". I also highly doubt that anyone below the 20000 rupees mark (250€ monthly household income) can set this up, because frankly, 50€ for a visa, 50€ for a flight (more like 500 from India to Schengen, I don't know, how you hitchhike by land - through Pakistan and Iran...) are just not possible that easy. So this leaves the upper 12% [https://www.statista.com/statistics/653897/average-monthly-h...] for this endeavours, which are a large absolute number, but frankly just a very well off elite in India _and_ similar countries. Clearly, they are a lot "poorer" than any European or North-American, but the original statement "he/she'll be quite rich in his/her homecountry" stands unabated. And while Russians are richer, you won't go fart either with the at max. 600€ monthly per capita income, 75% of the country enjoy [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1017901/russia-populatio...].
So to bring an end to this discussion: I don't think there are ex subsistence-farmers from Africa/India or migrant laborers/non-college educated from China/Russia doing "hyper budget", random travels (your statement: "with crappy passports and nearly no money"). All the people doing this, have a quite comfortable financial and social cushion in their home-country. So doing this _is a privilege_, which people from the North American or European population centers can enjoy a lot easier, because they earn a lot more money ($PPP) than _a majority_ of the remaining population on this planet.
And lastly: with Corona going around, I really don't see a point of travelling, but generally I'm not too aversed to the idea. Maybe we should just talk in person.
Right, and the fact that tourist visas require some cash has zero to do with my original comment. I specifically mentioned that vast swathes of the world are accessible to people even with crappy passports. Citizens of Africa and South America can generally travel extensively within their own continent with no visas, for example.
Yes, a priest that travels exclusively by plane is not a representative sample of Africans or how they travel...
> But you need that [€100 for Schengen health insurance]
Again, no, you can get Schengen health insurance for some 15 euros a month long term.
> well, I have been to Bulgaria and the experience of buying train tickets was "interesting"
In every country I've ever taken a train in, I have been able to buy a train ticket by finding an employee, translating the simple words "buy", "ticket", and the names of two cities.
> why are there stricter requirements and can you provide a source for your claim?
Because everyone knows what the majority of applicants are coming for, and first world countries' governments don't like that. As for a source, look up "B visa refusal rate" and you will get a handy PDF showing that while less than 2/10 Yemenis will get approved for a US B-visa, most Ghanaians get in, 66% of those from the Ivory Coast etc.
>you'll have used a bit of money in Europe and I doubt you can survive on the move below 3€ a day
Now, if you were actually reading any of my comments, you'd have seen where exactly I noted how that's not only very possible, but I've had many guests do it. But to spare you the effort, Couchsurfing and hitchhiking.
And an open secret anno 2020 is that basically nobody is enforcing the "no remote work while traveling" thing, just FYI.
To your comment about not finding the hordes in Eastern Europe, well, not sure what part of Eastern Europe you were in but I certainly saw a ton of Eastern Europeans traveling their region, and I've been to several countries there. Furthermore, no, you're not going to see massive amounts of Africans on a bus in Kyiv, I explicitly mentioned this was about their own regions.
Poor Russians are kind of like mountain goats: you see them somewhere ridiculous and think "how on Earth did they get there". Trust me, if we discover a new planet the first person there will be an enthusiastic Russian hitchhiking and traveling on 3 euros a day. So as far as they go, I have no doubts of their ability to travel with limited income.
Yes, the Corona factor goes without saying.
The poorest 20% of a poor country is certainly a lovely example of cherry picking, but for what is perhaps the 20th time, I never claimed everyone would be able to travel Schengen, I _explicitly_ mentioned people traveling their own region. That's why I'm still not sure if you're trolling me, because I keep saying "people can and do travel in interesting ways in their own region" and then you just talk over that with something ridiculous like "but this Yemeni subsistence farmer could NEVER afford a hotel in Paris! Checkmate!"
Poor people with bad passports do travel in interesting ways. Most of them won't end up visiting Switzerland, but trust me, there are cooler parts of the world in many impoverished people's backyards, and they do go see them.
Ahm, yes they travel for recreation and for the spirit while working. Just like your typical digital nomad. I know, you've asked the millions. I'm also acquainted with a fair share of international students who travel a lot and study in "the west". None of those comes from a remotely disenfranchised background, which in most "developing" countries is the majority of people...
> And if you think Russia or the CIS countries are "empty", you're dreaming. As someone who has traveled to tons of places, I consider that region to have some of the coolest travel destinations no matter what you're interested in. From Moscow to Kamchatka to the shores of Georgia, there's really something for everyone.
Kamchatka is cool for sure. Georgia as well. I just don't know how you do your digital nomadism in the former (you need to speak Russian, probably be used to crappy internet et al.). Just a simple question: you've been there, alone, without knowing Russian and have worked there? And Georgia is probably Sochi in disguise? Does the average Russian do cross-country flights there? Not from what I've heard...
> ... What? How would that prevent someone from going somewhere? So many options, from cancellable hotel reservations to Couchsurfing hosts to hostels... If you can't figure that out you really should not be going to a foreign country.
If you want to have a visa from most countries you need to add a schedule. And I'm quite sure couchsurfing isn't going to cut it. And for most hotels/hostels in the West you need a credit card. So: how many Russians/Indians/... own a credit card usable with your standard western european hostel? A tiny fraction of the population, because they don't need it at all except for (quite expensive) travel.
> I am not sure what to make of your Wikipedia link. If you meant to imply that Russia is a richer-than-average country, well, the numbers simply do not bear that out (Russia sits about a third lower than the global median income.)
Well, it's richer than any African country, most of South-America and most of Asia (except for Japan and SK). So yeah, it's rich compared to all these "bad passport" countries producing so many leisure-travelers. What is the global "median" income btw. and where did you get it?
> Thankfully that's easy to look up! The average American family has around $40,000 in liquid checking and savings according to the latest US Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, so no prob to that one. (If you're wondering how that works with the terrible Twitter statistic of most Americans not having $400)
Oh, is it. I just scrolled through the Excel-sheet linked by Business Insider. Didn't find that number. But, guess what! – I've found another number: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/27/heres-how-much-money-america... - just looks like there's a lot of Americans who can't just travel for 3 months with an average amount of many available. So I doubt that any average guy from "poorer" countries can do that...
> Regarding your human trafficking comment, those fleeing conflict are in an unusual situation globally.
Ah yes, the people fleeing conflict from Nigeria, Sambia, Ivory Coast. Yes, they are all paying a lot more than they had to for the privilege of dying in a boat in the mediterranean.
> If you have never applied for a visa, you may also find it useful to know that many things are taken into account. Your bank balance is more of a box to check and a fairly small part of the equation, all things considered.
Ah. And so what is a bigger part of the equation if the box is unchecked?
> I like how this is an opinion you've formed by writing weird and incorrect comments on HN. I have had tens of Couchsurfing guests from very poor places. I have had guests who hitchhiked from Turkey to Amsterdam, eating donated bread and peanut butter.
Turkey is not really poor either?! Also you need a visa and a travel insurance for round about 100€. So he had at least some savings before leaving. Also, if you're invited by a resident, getting a visa is quite easy for the EU I guess.
> I have had guests that flew from Russia on a $30 flight, and that was their largest expense. It is extremely possible to travel in this way if you are poor, and even if your passport sucks.
Oneway flight to Europe from Russia, without money, without a visa (costs 30-60€) and without health insurance. Stop telling bullshit.
> Budget hostels, Flixbuses, the 24hr McDonald's when they need a spot to charge their phone. They exist, and they exist in fairly large numbers. You'd be surprised.
Did you ever go with one of these flixbuses and experience the nice and friendly policemen ;)? What kind of visa do these non-Schengen-travellers you know have that they can apparently travel as long as they want through Europe?
> Finally, I'm not sure if not reading the comment you're replying to is just something you do, but I would recommend replying appropriately. Again, I'm not talking about any sort of "digital nomadism". What I'm talking about is distinctly different and separate.
well, this seems to be a misunderstanding, the blog post (from 2017 btw) talks about digital nomadism I think. What are you talking about?