The revolution was not "on their border", it was in another independent country. Trying to deny Ukranian agency and sovereignty is usual Russian propaganda talking point. You are basically saying "Those pesky Ukrainians started a revolution without asking glorious Russian president Putin first while also being at Russian border! That was definitively an act of war!" which is laughable. And just for you to note - I have been living all my life in walking distance from Independence square, so I don't need smug Fox news fans to lecture me on internet about "coups" and Nuland "distributing billions, weapons and oranges infused with battle drugs to Ukrainian nazis on Maidan!!1".
I never said the "totally not a coup revolution" was an act of war, I said of course Russia would respond to it just like we would if the same thing happened in Mexico since it would go against our national interest. We almost went to war with the Soviets just for getting too close to us in Cuba and still sanction Cuba to this day because of it.
Large powers take great interest in their enemies being on their border - more news at 11.
Meanwhile, it is interesting that you don't support the Crimeans voting to be part of Russia in 2014, but fully support the overthrowing of the democratically elected government in 2014. Is that logically consistent in your mind?
> I never said the "totally not a coup revolution" was an act of war
So what did you imply by (snarky) question "When do you think the war started?" followed by "Do you remember what happened right before he annexed Crimea?"? It seems we are in agreement that first act of war was occupation and annexation of Crimea?
Also, why are people like you are so hung up on this "coup vs revolution" thing? What exactly are you trying to achieve by playing with words here?
BTW you might want to consider listening to observers and insiders who actually experienced events directly. Like, you have actual Ukranian who was living nearby to Independence square during both 2004 and 2014 events and yet instead of changing your opinions based on my input you double down on lecturing _me_ about events I have first hand experience with. This makes you look like either a shill or just a person with poorly developed critical thinking.
> why are people like you are so hung up on this "coup vs revolution" thing? What exactly are you trying to achieve by playing with words here?
The reason the "coup vs revolution thing" matters so much is precisely what determines when the war started. If the CIA/State Dept hadn't been involved then and wasn't now treating this as a proxy war, then you would be right to think it all started when Putin rolled tanks into Crimea with no provocation. But we know that isn't what happened and we know the US was involved back then and is funding and arming Ukraine now in a proxy fight against Russia, and since we know all this we can't just blithely claim the war started the day Putin rolled into Crimea.
Putin didn't just decide one day to invade, whether you call it a revolution or a coup, the fact is the democratically elected government of Ukraine had just been overthrown, destabilizing the region and putting millions of Russians in harms way.
Now if you want to make the case that was a shitty justification for an invasion, ok - but that is a different conversation. I would argue it was at least as justified as our invasion of Iraq, Syria etc.
> It seems we are in agreement that first act of war was occupation and annexation of Crimea?
Crimeans voted to become part of Russia after they saw their democratically elected government overthrown in 2014 though, you keep ignoring that part. You ask me why I don't just take your word for it since you were there, but what about the opinions of countless Crimeans who voted to break away from what they saw as a newly installed western-backed puppet government? Their position matters less than yours? And that's to say nothing about the people on Donetsk and Luhansk who also wanted nothing to do with what they saw as an illegitimate government that had just overthrown a democratically elected one, and they've had to deal with periodic shelling since then and the government trying to outlaw anything related to their heritage such as their language, their church their media outlets etc.
> If the CIA/State Dept hadn't been involved then and wasn't now treating this as a proxy war, then you would be right to think it all started when Putin rolled tanks into Crimea with no provocation. But we know that isn't what happened and we know the US was involved back then and is funding and arming Ukraine now in a proxy fight against Russia, and since we know all this we can't just blithely claim the war started the day Putin rolled into Crimea.
Who are "we"? Links, please! All I know that bunch of my well-off middle class friends, coworkers, acquaintances participated. They are still waiting for CIA to send them the paychecks BTW. So, to me it looked very much like a _revolution_, but obviously random Fox news fan from US knows better...
> Putin didn't just decide one day to invade, whether you call it a revolution or a coup, the fact is the democratically elected government of Ukraine had just been overthrown, destabilizing the region and putting millions of Russians in harms way.
Harms way? Oh, I was waiting for those bloodthirsty russian-killing Ukrainian nazis to come in! (I'm a _russian-speaking Ukrainian_ BTW)
> Now if you want to make the case that was a shitty justification for an invasion, ok - but that is a different conversation. I would argue it was at least as justified as our invasion of Iraq, Syria etc.
So not justified at all?!
> Crimeans voted to become part of Russia after they saw their democratically elected government overthrown in 2014 though, you keep ignoring that part. You ask me why I don't just take your word for it since you were there, but what about the opinions of countless Crimeans who voted to break away from what they saw as a newly installed western-backed puppet government?
What about them? Crimea was de facto part of Russia for almost 8 years before Russia (re)invaded and it didn't look like the situation was going to change any time soon.
> And that's to say nothing about the people on Donetsk and Luhansk who also wanted nothing to do with what they saw as an illegitimate government that had just overthrown a democratically elected one, and they've had to deal with periodic shelling since then and the government trying to outlaw anything related to their heritage such as their language, their church their media outlets etc.
Outlaw my heritage? Excuse me? Part of my family is from Donetsk and I spent a lot of time there during my childhood so please spare me your Russian propaganda bullshit about bloodthirsty Ukrainian nazis that were going to brutalize tHeM RuSsiAn sPeaKiNg PeOplez oF DonBaSS until glorious President Putin intervened, thank you very much!
You're very emotionally attached to your positions and it's therefore pretty clear you are not open to discussion. Considering how strongly you feel, have you considered going back and fighting the good fight?
