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The disappointingly ongoing success of WvDial (2009) (apenwarr.ca)
65 points by tzhenghao on July 4, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 37 comments


> WvDial is a modem dialer and nobody uses modems anymore.

I was using dial up until probably 2007 or 2008, and I was certainly using wvdial with it. The reason I was using wvdial is because it was the only option that actually worked. I think I tried to get Gnome's GUI to work, but was never able to. I think I still have the non-winmodem PCI card too, spent a lot of money (for a teenager) on it.


I remember my excitement for a Ubuntu Shipit CD quickly dissipating once I realized I couldn't use a USB-A cellular modem dongle, which was the only way for me to get internet connectivity at the time. This was even after having compiled a custom driver, and so on and so forth.

As a Linux newbie, this experience gave me an immense sense of revulsion towards the Linux desktop. However, one fine afternoon, I tried to boot up the Ubuntu partition, and try running the wvdial command instead of using Gnome PPP. Imagine my surprise when it just worked...


I remember my first paycheck from my first real job, I went out and bought a new modem. Don’t remember exactly what, but it was a big upgrade from the 2400 baud that came with my computer


Yea I've still got my hardware modem too. External, connects via serial.

I don't even have copper phone line service.


There is also the question of inertia. People are used to certain software, and recommend this to others. In many cases I'd rather have a CLI that I know how to use, than a finnicky GUI that I don't.


Yep, also it works, and if it works, why change it?

Also the documentation exists.. find a 10 year old manual how to connect? Still works? Great! A rarity with modern software (and programming languages).

Also, since it's not really "exposed", lack of maintenance doesn't matter a long as it just works.


Especially when the GUI is just a hastily thrown together wrapper for some other command line tool that’s worse than the original.


In 30 years, the GUI could have been deprecated about 7 times.


There was wvdialconf I can recall it right.

On using old software because of inertia or better features:

- MPlayer/MPV. Simple keys, click on the file and it just plays it. That's it.

- Pidgin with plugins.

- Mutt+lynx (for HTML email) with mbsync and msmtp. Batched email for important stuff when you must preserve your data against inferior solutions such as Discord.

- Lynx on gopher/http heavy sites calling external video and audio viewers. Good when bw is scarce, and gopher://gopherddit.com, gopher://hngopher.com and gopher://magical.fish have tons of services to use.

- wpa_passphrase+wpa_supplicant daemon+wpa_gui if you are in love with mice.

- find/xargs/rsync/moreutils/vidir/rclone: editing zillions of filenames in place with an editor and vidir, sync them, rename them... hell in Explorer, a piece of cake under Unix where you can use your favourite editor in a folder tree mounted with rclone and then batch-replace your whole remote directory subtree as if it was a text file. Old concept, science fiction for today's youngsters:

    rclone mount yourcloudremoteshare: ./here

    EDITOR=gedit vidir ./here/foo/bar/
And that's the simplest method. With find you don't even need to spawn an editor, with a command after exec you can run for instance

    find ./here -type f -iname "*.pdf" -exec evince {} \;
to open the evince PDF viewer on all the PDF filenames you find in your remote.


mpv isn't particularly old or crufty, and especially this thing doesn't really apply to it

> And perhaps most oddly of all, none of the problems WvDial originally set out to solve are problems today.

mpv still addresses the same problems and needs that sparked it's inception


> We originally created wvdial back in the late 1990's because setting up pppd 'chat' scripts was too annoying.

Yes, wvdial saved my ass back then. I remember pppd being incredibly confusing (not sure if it was, but I was only a teenager at the time.) Weird flashback to hear about this; I would have forgotten about it completely otherwise and yes, that is a sad state of things...


Loved wvdial in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Circa 2009-2010 I was surprised to see instructions to use it for tethering on the Nokia N900. I guess the cellular data was still using the old AT command set.


You'll never guess what cellular modems still use.


There was a period where many were presenting a CDC Ethernet device instead, although this seems to have gone out of fashion again.


There's an astonishing amount of things in the world which are not too hard to do, would be really useful and/or popular, yet no one really thought of making them. This also applies to software, BTW.


Care to elaborate?

Because nowadays anything can be a startup idea.


I think part of what would make these things so especially useful is that they'd be simple FLOSS packages. "VC-backed modern-WvDial-replacement-as-a-service" doesn't sound so useful, does it?


>VC-backed

There’s your problem.


For example, a universal internet annotator/commenter tool. Dissenter has tried but it quickly got shut down.

The point would be that you could comment on and discuss any site without the site operators' interference.


Google tried that too with SideWiki, but it only lasted 2yrs I think. There must be somethin to it that makes it not as easy as you think.


That was just Google being Google, and its history of abandoning products. I wouldn't give it too much meaning, tbh.


Moderation. It's always moderation.

"Anyone can write there" also means "anyone can write bollocks there". From ye-olde name-calling and flaming to SEO/ad spam.


A little considered aspect of current "moderation" is that the mere need to create an account limits the total content volume And percentage of posted content which one would need to moderate.

It's almost like a variant of security through obscurity which actually has a meaningful impact.



stet was a bad implementation of a great idea but my god was it cool!

I am really puzzled why this idea did not catch in academia.

Only Rap Genious reimplemented it somewhat poorly.

And JIRA... even worse.


Dissenter is still around. You can just install it manually, its great but you have to dodge the odd nazi.


This seems like something Brave could get away with...


So, Reddit as a stand-alone app?


Basically, and it would work on a URL basis.


Usenet?


Not with the federal funds rate at 5% they can't!


Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2347/


That one always gives me existential dread.


Huh. I'm pretty sure that was largely obsoleted a while back (like, over a decade probably, not too long after this was written) by NetworkManager and ModemManager adding better handling for all the weird quirks that did actually matter with mobile broadband. It might still be possible to use it with the right manual configuration and additional software, but it'd mean dealing with badly documented quirks that are just handled for you by ModemManager.


Nowadays, well, on BT, bluez solved all of these problems, and blueman works once at for all.

But BT it's insecure as hell, OpenBSD and distros like Hyperbola GNU/Linux (which will be obsd based soon) ditched BT because of these reasons.


I use it every week, sometimes every day.

Like, just start the dam thing and it works.


I love that blog, and I wish he'd post more often.




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