>See, this is the problem with this virulent strain of Scientism making the rounds right now.
We have a very good understanding of the fundamental forces and particles that govern the brain and our everyday experience. That doesn't mean that we'll use the vocabulary and mathematics of fundamental physics to explain brain processes, just as we don't use particle physics vocabulary when we model Hurricanes or explain cell processes. Nevertheless, whatever model or explanation you come up with for Consciousness better square with those fundamental physics otherwise you're going to be in the crackpot territory. That's not Scientism, that's just a fact.
>There's this tendency to divide ideas into two camps: "explained by our current understanding of physics" and "magic".
Again, Quantum Mechanics, and the Standard Model (as well as the laws of Chemistry that abstract those) are not going away. Evolution and Natural Selection is not going away either. That constrains the kinds of explanations we will have for Consciousness. If you think understanding Consciousness will overturn either the Standard Model or Evolution, you're going to be very disappointed. Again, that's not Scientism, that's just a smart prediction.
>But telling me that Strong AI will basically solve this issue (and that any protestation is an appeal to "magic") comes across as hand-waving
I didn't say it will solve Conciousness. I think Conciousness is an ill-defined concept, but yet many people have very strong feelings about. I speculated we'd probably see it as such when (if) we are capable of building such a strong AI, probably before that.
You should try harder not to assume the people you're talking to are morons. The person you're debating doesn't think evolution is going away, not even a little bit, not even for a second. That you don't recognize this means you should be more charitable in understanding his point of view.
Eh, I'm willing to cut them some slack. I talked about science as a continuous process of revision, which might give the impression that I'm making a Pessimistic Induction argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pessimistic_induction) against all scientific conclusions. I think macspoofing was just trying to counter with examples of scientific theories that seem pretty airtight, and that's fair. Also I basically accused them of falling prey to mindless Scientism, which was admittedly a bit harsh (seeing people attribute "magical" explanations to skeptics can trigger my rage mode, apparently).
Anyway, this whole thing is very controversial (they don't call the Hard Problem "hard" for no reason), and I can see the appeal of trying to safeguard the scientific process of knowledge-building from the messy weirdness of subjective experience. Time will tell if consciousness can be explained by a more advanced physics. I'm certainly looking forward to it.
>That you don't recognize this means you should be more charitable in understanding his point of view.
Should that understanding have come before or after being accused of 'Scientism', which feels like an insult, but I can't be sure because I don't really know what that means in context.
>The person you're debating doesn't think evolution is going away, not even a little bit, not even for a second.
I didn't imply that he did. The point I was trying to get across is that there are some real constraints on the type of explanations we'll have with respect to Consciousness. We are not going to need unknown exotic physics to explain it, and whatever the answer is it will stay comfortably within the current Evolutionary framework. Obviously that could be wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it. This should not be a controversial statement.
We have a very good understanding of the fundamental forces and particles that govern the brain and our everyday experience. That doesn't mean that we'll use the vocabulary and mathematics of fundamental physics to explain brain processes, just as we don't use particle physics vocabulary when we model Hurricanes or explain cell processes. Nevertheless, whatever model or explanation you come up with for Consciousness better square with those fundamental physics otherwise you're going to be in the crackpot territory. That's not Scientism, that's just a fact.
>There's this tendency to divide ideas into two camps: "explained by our current understanding of physics" and "magic".
Again, Quantum Mechanics, and the Standard Model (as well as the laws of Chemistry that abstract those) are not going away. Evolution and Natural Selection is not going away either. That constrains the kinds of explanations we will have for Consciousness. If you think understanding Consciousness will overturn either the Standard Model or Evolution, you're going to be very disappointed. Again, that's not Scientism, that's just a smart prediction.
>But telling me that Strong AI will basically solve this issue (and that any protestation is an appeal to "magic") comes across as hand-waving
I didn't say it will solve Conciousness. I think Conciousness is an ill-defined concept, but yet many people have very strong feelings about. I speculated we'd probably see it as such when (if) we are capable of building such a strong AI, probably before that.