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You should take a look at stock market returns over the last few years, this year included.

If you purchased shares of a s&p500 index fund at just about any point in history, your net gain will be well over 5% annual growth.

Even if you bought in at the peak of 2007 - the worst time you could have bought in recent history, before the ~35% decline in 2008, if you are still holding on to it today, it's about 6% annual growth.

> by what happened in Japan post 1991 1991 Japan and 2014 United States are no where near similar enough to draw that conclusion. I agree that ZIRP forever is not a good policy - and at some point in the next decade we will feel the results of it, but forecasting three decades of economic stagnation is just silly.



>You should take a look at stock market returns over the last few years, this year included.

This is exactly what scares me about it. It's frothy as hell.

So is it a nice safe place to stash my retirements savings where it will yield 5% consistently until I retire? I don't think so.

>1991 Japan and 2014 United States are no where near similar enough to draw that conclusion

Let's see:

1) Huge crash in property prices caused by a debt bubble (us: 2008 / them: 1991).

2) Central bank responds by trying to reinflate asset values in order to make banks solvent again. They drop interest rates to zero and raise them as soon as growth returns which will be very very soon now, honest. (both countries did and said this; both promised it would be temporary)

3) Growth doesn't return. Banks still effectively insolvent and are propped up only by high asset values and extend & pretend. (both countries did this)

4) Central bank perpetually afraid of raising rates in case it causes a sharp economic contraction for which they will be blamed.

5) ZIRP thus becomes the new normal (it's been 6 years so far for us, and 23 years for them).

So far the path has been identical. Hell, we've even gotten plummeting birth rates too.

>forecasting three decades of economic stagnation is just silly.

I don't know how many decades it will be, but "the new normal" shows no signs of ending any time soon.

Forecasting safe 5% returns is bullshit, anyway.


There are other, safer, kinds of funds beside stock funds. It sounds like what you want is a fund holding government bonds. Those are pretty safe, and will probably give you better return than the bank.


US government bonds (ten year, so plenty of short term price risk) pay 2.16%. If you are in Europe, German government bonds pay around 0.8%.


if you consider inflation (1.70% in the US,0.60% in Germany) those interests are almost zero.

If you have 1M$ and want to live on that, and you're good enough to live with 25k$/yr, you need to consistently "extract" 2.5% on that capital, that means you need to consistently get 4.2% every year. And this exposes another issue: even if you have a safe investment that can give you 4.2%/yr on average, that's not steady, so if some years are bad (or really bad) you need to eat into the capital. If these happens for too many years in a row, the capital could be reduced enough that you need to get higher earnings to counterbalance that.

I'm not a finance expert so feel free to show me the fallacies of my reasoning!


> I'm not a finance expert so feel free to show me the fallacies of my reasoning!

Your reasoning is sound. And it's actually worse than that - the reported inflation in the US (CPI) vastly underestimates realistic costs of living. I would assume that's true in Germany and the rest of the world as well.

Officially, it is 1.7%. However, that includes hedonistic adjustments (you can buy a TV now for $70 that is equivalent to a $2000 TV from 30 years ago; therefore, $70 today is worth $2000 of 30 years ago; weighted by the relative part of your expenses that go towards buying TVs), "owner equivalent rent", which is a speculation by a sampling of home owners about how much rent they would have paid to live in their own house (are they over estimating? underestimating?), some measures ignore food and energy costs (who needs either?) and other shenanigans that make the numbers easy to manipulate on one hand, and impossible to reproduce on the other.

Unless the majority of your expenses are technology related and unchanging (you still happy with your Apple ][ performance, right?), the CPI is probably closer to 5% per year for a while now. Health, Education, Energy, Food and housing, which are responsible for most of everyone's expenses have been appreciating at a much faster rate than the official "inflation".


you do have to be aware of the effect when QE is unwound which will depress the price of gilts


QE doesn't need to be unwound; bonds can roll off into cash.


you do know that bond prices and the bank rate are linked bank rate goes up bond prices go down - sucks if you lose 20% of your capital that way and that has happened recently


>you do know that bond prices and the bank rate are linked bank rate goes up bond prices go down

Yes, that is true. But how is the bond price relevant, from the Fed's perspective, if they aren't selling the bonds?


well I think the down side is for the holders ie you and me and our pension funds :-(


you should not unless your close to retirement have much of your pension fund in cash or cash equivelent's.

And re 5% I have several IT (investment companies) with returns of over 10% pa for the last decade




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